Sumner asks some important questions at the end of chapter 2. Take some time to reflect on this and feel free to share your thoughts in the comment section below.
1. What do women in your local church hear?
2. What are they told about their participation in the church?
Feel free to apply these questions to Wheatland but also think about the church at large. What are some of the “messages” that women receive throughout the church.
Filed under: Discussion Group, Questions, Sarah Sumner
I’m surprised no one has commented yet! I guess I’ll start.
There is a non-verbal (and sometimes verbal, too) message in many churches that certain leadership roles are only for men, or at least best filled by men. These roles may include head pastor, assistant pastors, elders, deacons, teachers for adult classes, and more, depending on where a particular church “draws the line.” Most churches of which I have been a part have rarely taught on the subject. I would guess this is because it is controversial, and like Sumner says, no one knows how to deal with the entirety of the 1 Tim. 2 passage.
I think most women in the church I was born into just didn’t think of being in those roles because no other women were. If they did think to volunteer, they were probably told it wasn’t allowed based on 1 Tim. 2 and similar passages. If women were allowed to fill an unconventional role, it wasn’t because of any reasonable explanation given for the passages regarding women not teaching, but more because everyone was happy to pretend the passages didn’t exist.
Based on my experience, I think women still get the message that they are valued members of the Christian community with much to offer its members, particularly in the areas that women are thought to “normally” be gifted – serving, hospitality, prayer, caring for children, the sick, and the poor, perhaps in artistic or musical things, and perhaps even administrative duties. If a woman is clearly gifted to teach, her gift is usually validated and valued, and she is directed to “safe” roles teaching children or other women. I don’t think this is meant to demean the women involved (at least not the majority of the time); it is done because the people involved are trying to be faithful to the Scriptures. But as Sumner points out, the Scriptures are not really that straight-forward. If women’s leadership roles are to be limited based on the Scriptures (and I’m not saying they shouldn’t be – I’m still mulling over the issue myself), then we really should deal with the surrounding verses that we really don’t want to deal with – i.e. women being silent in church, wearing head coverings, being saved through childbearing.
Wow, that was really long. I’m sorry. :$
No apology necessary. Your thoughts are very helpful. One of the last points you made is about “verses we don’t really want to deal with”. These passages seem to suggest a real diversity in Scripture in regards to this issue. I have often wondered what we are to make of this.
For example, Priscilla is a teacher of Apollos who is an Apostle (not one of the original 12) and even corrects him. I Tim 2 tells us that a woman is not to teach or usurp authority from a man. She does both.
Does this mean that some parts of some passages are OK to set aside because they do not directly apply to our situation? If this is true, how do we know when to set something aside and when to keep it?
There are cultural commands in Scripture that we no longer abide by because they are cultural. Others we keep. What guide can we use to get us through?
I have some ideas but will save them for later.
Paul, where does Priscilla do this? I found in Acts 18:26 where she and Aquilla “confronted” him. This does not seem to be the act of just Priscilla. Are there other examples?
wow – i appreciate dr. sumners desire to explore bible vs tradition ( my simplification). i’m only to chapter 5 and still letting it all sink in.
I accidentally posted to wrong thread… so i am moving it here.
i think the church in general has come a long way in dealing with women and leadership. Some of the best things I have experienced are women on the church board, worship, women ministries, co-teachers for a mixed gender groups, and simply asking and taking a womens opinion into consideration, and in other cases believing her and heeding to prophecy.
The one area that I am not so sure about is senior pastor and co-pastor. When I read the Word I see men in those types of positions. No doubt women served and led and were used by God in many ways but if we keep reading men were their leaders. Queen Esther had the King the king’s men to yield to and her uncle. Naomi used by God in another woman’s life Ruth guiding her to their kinsman Boaz. Of course there is Deborah and my opinion is that even though she had an extraordinary ability to lead in difficult situation there weren’t many women in those types of positions.
So it’s not so much what is being said, it’s more of what is being read. For me that is. I don’t want to come across like I know it all but I try to check things out through the Word of God.
May I ask you a few questions? Are these discussions simply for discussion? or is there a reason for this? I know the questions are from the book that is being read and my question again is why?
Chief and Queenie:
You ask great questions that I want to reply to soon. However, I’ve been crazy busy with other “non-blog” issues. I hope to get back to it this afternoon. Keep the thoughts and questions coming.
Paul
queeniepoo – what chapter are you on? dr. sumner uses tons of scripture references for each topic she covers while posing questions and thoughts from different sides of the issue. this is helpful when reading the Bible if there are some things about men and women issues that aren’t clear.
i’m still on chapter 5 (paul took the book to a group last night and i don’t have it back yet). i wasn’t going to read it – time issues – but i’m so glad i am now , especially when she talks about how we as men AND women are to be who we are in Christ, not anything else, this gets me interested in what else she has to say not only about gender issues but also just who we are in Christ. – glad your in on the book discussion blog!
I have come back!
Chief, on your questions regarding Priscilla let me share these few comments: (Also keep in mind that we will probably return to this part of the discussion again later but here are a few things to chew on initially)
Priscilla is a fascinating figure in Scripture and scholars haven’t always known what to do with her. For example:
1. Whenever Priscilla is mentioned in Scripture her name comes before that of her husband except when they are first introduced in Acts 18:2 and in I Corinthians 16:19. It is notable that the wife of Aquilla is mentioned at all. Literary convention did not assume that the wife of an important person being addressed or discussed would be mentioned. The fact that she is frequently mentioned first suggests that she is the one taking the lead in whatever action is taking place.
2. Following along that same line in Acts 18:24-28 it appears that Priscilla, by virtue of being listed first, is the primary actor in the interaction with Apollos. (Conceivably she could have been the only one correcting Apollos with Aquilla mentioned in the text for the sake of giving a woman credibility. This could be true but it is speculative.)
3. What occurs between Priscilla, Aquilla and Apollos might better be called “tutoring” instead of “teaching”. The difference between the two being the setting of one student vs. multiple students. What the NIV describes as “confrontation” is best translated with the phrase “took him aside”. Rather than embarrass Apollos the couple discuss the issue and bring correction to him privately.
4. The context of 18:24-28 makes clear that P & A are dealing with Apollos around his teaching or doctrine…”teaching him about his teaching”.
That being said, this passage is interesting in light of II Timothy 2 where women are not allowed to “teach or exercise authority over a man”. It seems that both are happening in this context.
The ironic thing is that Priscilla and Aquilla are talking to Apollos in Ephesus. Timothy, the recipient of the the letter II Timothy, was receiving instruction from Paul on how to deal with his difficult church. Where was his difficult church? Ephesus…an odd exception. (Sumner talks about this on pg. 241 I didn’t catch this myself.)
Yikes…what a long previous comment. Forgive my verbosity.
Queenie, you ask some good questions so let me respond, briefly I hope, to the final questions in your comment. The answer to your first three questions is easy: yes.
Your last question requires a more thoughtful response. My goal in reading and discussing “Men and Women in the Church” is to generate a discussion around how men and women relate to one another in the Body of Christ, and, more specifically within the Wheatland Mission. Yes, I hope that this book will inform our decision about what to do about women and their position in leadership. However, that is not the most valuable thing we can learn from the book. Instead, learning more and more what it means to be “one” within the body of Christ is far more valuable and this book helps in that quest.
In my opinion, oneness requires equality. But equality is not an end in itself. A community of oneness, based upon God’s Spirit and reflecting God’s image, is the end that Christians strive for.
So, as we pray and think and pray and ask and pray some more about whether or not women should be on the primary level of leadership in our community I want us to ask a bigger, better question: How would God have us live as brothers and sisters in Christ? I think we are going in a good direction already, but there is always room for growth.
I think you’ll enjoy the book. Sumner reviews a lot of the arguments for and against unrestricted involvement in ministry for women. She raises as many questions as she answers but I think she leads us (she has led me) to the better questions.
Thanks…keep the comments and questions coming!
Paul – in light of your comments and based on II Timothy, it sounds like Priscilla was wrong in her acts then. I realize that there is more to this as there may have been some reason behind the statements made in II Timothy which keep them from being global statements- but since we are not given those reason, I don’t know how else to interpret those statements.
Currently QP and I are not reading this book. We are focusing more on things defined as the essentials of the faith. Women’s roles in the church fall under the non-essentials and can be argued ad nauseam and never come to any consensus. In fact, it usually ends up with hard feelings.
I don’t argue that we need to value women and not put them in the position of being subservient. However, I take objection to calling men and women equals – but that is because I have a different view of what equal is. Equal, to me, means “the same”, and men and women are not the same. Biologically that is obvious. That does not mean women are inferior, they just provide a different dimension to the picture.
Good thoughts Chief!
The word “equal” does require some definition and relying upon its usage in the broader culture is not always helpful.
Here is how I use the word. To say that people are equal does not mean there aren’t distinctions between them but it does mean, in the eyes of God and his people, that people are of equal dignity and worth and deserve to be treated as such.
I agree that women and men are not the same. Beyond biological differences there are many “glorious” differences that should not be ignored but celebrated.
Equality appears to me to be a necessary part of Christian life but it is not enough to make life in the community of Christ healthy. Equality by itself is weak compared to love, sacrifice and service.
Chill24- I’m not reading the book but I am going through the scriptures and I do see how women were used by God and I do know that we have every spiritual gift to be used for God’s work and in his time. I understand who we are in Christ and as believer’s the many freedoms and gifts we have through Him.
Now my heartfelt concern is there are people who have a conviction of not being under the teaching of a woman. So what do we do with that now? Everything is permissible- but not everything is constructive.
The great freedom in this is that if I am wrong God will deal with me and bring me to a point of understanding-this I believe with all my heart. And if women preachers are part of Wheatland then so be it…may HIS will be done.