For the last couple of weeks I have asked the questions highlighted in the previous post from Sumner’s book.
1. What do women in your local church hear?
2. What are they told about their participation in the church?
The responses from various conversations have been both encouraging and discouraging. I have been encouraged that most people from Wheatland perceive an openness to women being involved in all kinds of ministry within our small community. This has been evidenced in the fact that women within our worship gatherings share both their comments and questions, help lead worship, and read Scripture. Women also lead various areas of ministry. In fact, more than one person remarked that they gave no thought to any differences in levels of involvement for women and men prior to our discussion about leadership.
On a discouraging note, when these questions were expanded to consider messages women hear within the broader conservative Christian culture, a different attitude emerged. Some people perceived an overall negative attitude toward women within conservative Christianity. This was a largely unspoken, and unintentional, negativity which sent a message that women were somehow less capable, less valuable or less important. This is a deeper problem that must be faced by Christian men and women and resolved. A good place to begin is to remind one another that:
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. – Galatians 3:28
My goal in reading Men and Women in the Church is not to indoctrinate anyone from the Wheatland Mission into believing exactly what I believe. Instead, I want us to think through the broader issue of how men and women really are one in Christ and what that might mean on a practical level within our community. Having an informed opinion, even when it is different from those surrounding us, is not a problem to be solved. It is an opportunity to stay close to Jesus. It is an opportunity to love.
This is the deeper and more important message behind the book.
P.S. It has been a bad “blogging week”. For those of you who left comments on here I will be responding. Keep the questions coming.
Filed under: Discussion Group, Questions
Thanks for setting up this blog Paul! I have enjoyed the book more than I originally thought I would. Instead of it merely being about women in leadership, it really talks about broader issues like attitudes toward women in general. I just finished the chapter on women and personhood (sorry if I am getting ahead on the blog discussions) and it really made me think about things I have never considered before. Dr. Sumner talks about how many christian women view themselves as inferior to men, when asked in light of the christian world. I have been guilty of that as well, thinking that scripture is telling me I am inferior, or maybe that I shoud take an inferior role. But as you remind us in the Galatians verse, that’s not really what the Bible is teaching us. And is society in general, that view doesn’t exist, at least not as strongly as it does in the church. Lots more in the book that I look forward to discussing, but that’s the one that I’m mulling over today. Looking forward to the discussion tonight!
I actually never found myself to feel inferior according to the scriptures or what preachers have said on this subject. Having said that I feel sorry for those women who feel or felt that way…because they believed a lie. O my dear sisters we have every spiritual blessing!!
If a woman thinks that wiping a childs runny nose in Sunday school is an inferior role because she was not preaching instead, I am so heartbroken.
If a woman is comparing her value against man and not fully aware of her Postion in Christ then her eyes are fixed on man and not on Christ.
When I was involved in a relationship that caused me to view myself as inferior I somehow started to believe it. The job place had strong women in place and I still “felt” that way but I had nothing else to believe in other than just more education to get me to those “higher” positions.
When the TRUTH was witnessed to me I realized that God was the only one who gave me position in Christ. If alI I did was change dirty diapers or wash dishes for church functions I knew I was blessed!!
Just as I became a Christian I was also a single and the freedom to learn about Christ without the torture and tearing down of my persona was milk and honey to my soul. Even though I didn’t have a partnership with a husband I had it with Christ and with some STRONG, awesome women in Christ praying and encouraging me in the Word. I didn’t find my identity in doing I found it in resting. I understood my higher position is in Christ and he would direct the priorities in this partnership with him.
If women are being called to be pastor’s I hope that it is truly from God and that it is not an earthly calling or there we will find disorder. Just as it is with men.
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus;
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,..
Great stuff, Queenie!
I wonder how we can help alleviate some of the “unspoken” messages that women may hear about their worth in Christ. How can we help men and women, but in this case especially women, understand that they are loved by God just as much as anyone else, are of equal worth, and that their contributions to the community of Christ are of inestimable value?
Kelly, it’s ok to get ahead. I don’t know if I can keep this blog sequential. Let it rip!
Paul-I don’t have the formula but I do know that by God’s grace i was spared a lot of confusion. I guess i had a childlike faith and believed it all, I wanted to be bondage free. The freedom in Christ empowered me and my gifts were enhanced and turned to be used for His work. I was close to 28 years of age when I became a follower of Christ.
I also wanted to share that I went to a baptist church where women and their positions in Christ were encouraged and valued. There was a particular group of women with gifts of prophecy and exhortaton. They were the watchmen for our church anyhow the women were all in agreement that there was a huge sin in the church that needed to be addressed. They prayed for monthis and asked for prayer coverage for themselves from some of us ladies.
Once they were all in agreement one lady the spokeperson approached the overseer of the group and asked to meet with him and the pastor. They all met and the pastor took heed to the prophecy. There was an affair of the heart between the worship minister and one of the lead singers! They looked back to when they sensed God was speaking to them on this situation and the timing was just as they sensed.
Do you see how these women had a high postion in Christ and yet positioned themselves a little lower then the men in authority over the church? They prayed, they asked and they met. They had keen abilities to discern, take strong and unpopular stands, and yet they positioned themselves to be yielded. This is also why I think that having men as the authority over the church is best, it is freeing, there is protection from our warrior men the stronger one and there is nothing in that that says we are less valuable!
Yes pastors need to make more use of womens gifts in the church there is soooo much that we have to offer and there is no pressing need to have women to be the authority over the church. This does concern my spirit. In the begining God created Eve and from Eve came Adam.
Ha! my last line was not finished! By accident I hit the submit comment.
But look how ridicules the disorder of that looks…blah! I guess it was meant to be so I’ll just stop there
I _do_ think that there is a pressing need to have women be authority figures in church. If women are truly to be considered equal to men, then we should have the same opportunities as men. I think it’s great how there are some men in our church who have taken on traditionally feminine roles in the church–like working in the nursery. So, then, why couldn’t a woman preach (don’t worry, Paul, I’m not trying to oust you!) or hold a position of leadership? I know you can point to the Bible and say that there are no women pastors, but look at the culture. Women were considered less than men–way less than men. The New Testament was written within a culture of patriarchy and misogyny. Does that mean that we should perpetuate such a culture? I don’t think so. And if you are going to take the Scriptures on women in the church literally, then we women should be wearing head coverings and not speaking at all in church.
Here’s another thought: Back in the Civil War days, blacks were not allowed to have leadership positions within churches because the Bible, according to some people, condoned slavery. It says, after all, “Slaves, obey your masters.” But today, we look at this (hopefully!) as ludicrous. I realize my comparison doesn’t work completely, but I think there are some definite comparisons worth considering….
I neglected to check this blog for a few days, and was pleasantly surprised to see that the discussion has really picked up pace!
I wanted to address some of the thoughts from Chief and Queenie. It sounds like we have come from the same background as far as our views of the Scripture on this issue. I’ve also shared the opinion, previously, that this subject is not an “essential,” not something to make an issue over. Yet, it seems to come up more frequently than I would expect for an issue that doesn’t need to be addressed. For instance, back in GC, a cell group in our church was doing a Beth Moore video study, and I wondered if it was Biblical that the men were sitting under the teaching of a woman. Then, the cell group we were involved in at CCC did a video study by a woman, and the same question came to mind. And now, here we are at Wheatland, trying to decide what our leadership structure will look like and whether women will be on the board. I know both churches in which I was previously involved “officially” believed women should not teach men, or in a more strict sense be “in authority” over men (and how do you let someone teach you without granting them the authority of speaking into your life?). But this official position was not applied very straightforwardly or consistently.
So, I have struggled with the issue periodically without ever totally resolving it for myself. After all, when I contribute comments that could be considered instructional in a mixed group, how am I not “teaching” the men in the group? I considered for a time that maybe I did need to actually be silent in any mixed group to avoid inadvertently teaching a man in the group or somehow influencing his doctrine or beliefs. However, this never felt right (not that we should rely totally on feelings, I know). Like Sumner, I felt like God’s Spirit was with me and using me during the times when I would make such comments in a mixed group. Even though I was willing to do whatever God wanted in this area, including being silent in mixed groups if that was His will, I wanted to make sure I understood correctly what His will really was. I wouldn’t want to neglect to say something that He might be prompting me to say because of my misunderstanding of His will for women’s roles in the Church. So, I wasn’t silent in mixed groups for long, even though I hadn’t totally resolved the issue for myself.
I’m not saying I have it all figured out now, but I would say I am reconsidering it, again, and I hope to become a little more informed and enlightened on the issue, again. We have to admit none of us knows for sure what certain passages are telling us to do in our modern context (what is Apostle Paul really saying when he says women are saved through childbearing in 1 Tim? and what is Apostle Paul really saying about women’s head coverings in Corinthians?), and when taken together with other seemingly contradictory passages (like mentions of early Church women who were apparently leaders). I think Sumner lays out the complexity of the issue and offers some helpful information on the context that is unspoken in the scriptures – like her description of the goddess cults of Ephesus and how they would have affected the Ephesian church and its women.
Jill, there are two important points you raise that I think need more unpacking, and will get that as we read farther into the book. First, the culture of the day had an enormous impact on the biblical teachings regarding women. The difficulty for us is determining that which is “transcultural” (those principles that apply across all time and cultures) from that which is culture specific (something that clearly no longer applies across the board; e.g. “greet one another with a holy kiss”).
Second, your point about slavery in the U.S. in the 19th Century raises another issue about the trajectory of meaning in Scripture. For example, if an evangelical, biblically conservative Christian today were asked if they felt slavery was wrong they would, with few exceptions, state yes. If asked for a specific verse to defend their point of view they would say no. But, if asked if their Christian faith had an impact on their opinion they would almost certainly say yes. Why is this? It is because people interpret the specific words of Scripture along with the “spirit of the text”. This understandably makes some nervous but I believe there is a way of reading Scripture with a view to this “trajectory” of meaning.
Is that clear as mud? We’ll get around to that soon. Hang in there.
Jenny,
Your raising good questions. I think the strength (one of them) of Sumner’s book is the way she lays out the issues and looks at them from both sides. She is very judicious in her coverage and also very fair in her representation. It’s kind of hard to know, for sure, where she is on the issue.
Good stuff.