I have been reading this book with much interest. I am currently in the middle of Chapter 23. I also have read many of the posts on blogs of various folks participating in the discussion, but this is my first entry into the blogging world.

For me, I know I’ve been curious about this book as it relates to my own life and my own view of gender roles in the church. I also want to try to honor God in my marriage and I’m not ashamed to say that I’m often clueless on how to do that well.

As a church, I know we have an opportunity for a fresh start. Looking at this issue of men and women and leadership is important as we try to figure out our structure.

I know some have questioned why we as a small church would tackle such a potentially divisive topic. I applaud Paul for his leadership and vision to encourage us as a church to wrestle with this issue when the easier thing to do would be to leave it alone.

At the beginning of Chapter 23, Sumner says this: The more I pay attention, the more I become convinced that the current debate on men and women in the church effectively unearths people’s buried thoughts about their sexuality, their concept of marriage, their view of the authority of Scripture, their theology of God and their philosophy of natural order. That’s why this debate is so volatile and heated. It strikes at the core of people’s most sacred beliefs.

As I read that, I understand more of why we as a church engage in discussions like this. This book is more than a discussion about men and women’s roles in the church. It actually causes us (if we let it) to examine our own lives and broadens our perspective on who God is. It challenges our biases and perspectives in light of our current culture. This, I submit, is an integral part of the Christian life.

For me, I know I’ve been curious about this book as it relates to my own life and my own view of gender roles in the church. I also want to try to honor God in my marriage and I’m not ashamed to say that I’m often clueless on how to do that well.

As a church, I know we have an opportunity for a fresh start. Looking at this issue of men and women and leadership is important as we try to figure out our structure.

I know some have questioned why we as a small church would tackle such a potentially divisive topic. I applaud Paul for his leadership and vision to encourage us as a church to wrestle with this issue when the easier thing to do would be to leave it alone.

At the beginning of Chapter 23, Sumner says this: The more I pay attention, the more I become convinced that the current debate on men and women in the church effectively unearths people’s buried thoughts about their sexuality, their concept of marriage, their view of the authority of Scripture, their theology of God and their philosophy of natural order. That’s why this debate is so volatile and heated. It strikes at the core of people’s most sacred beliefs.

As I read that, I understand more of why we as a church engage in discussions like this. This book is more than a discussion about men and women’s roles in the church. It actually causes us (if we let it) to examine our own lives and broadens our perspective on who God is. It challenges our biases and perspectives in light of our current culture. This, I submit, is an integral part of the Christian life.

Good stuff.

Second, your point about slavery in the U.S. in the 19th Century raises another issue about the trajectory of meaning in Scripture. For example, if an evangelical, biblically conservative Christian today were asked if they felt slavery was wrong they would, with few exceptions, state yes. If asked for a specific verse to defend their point of view they would say no. But, if asked if their Christian faith had an impact on their opinion they would almost certainly say yes. Why is this? It is because people interpret the specific words of Scripture along with the “spirit of the text”. This understandably makes some nervous but I believe there is a way of reading Scripture with a view to this “trajectory” of meaning.

Is that clear as mud? We’ll get around to that soon. Hang in there.

I wanted to address some of the thoughts from Chief and Queenie. It sounds like we have come from the same background as far as our views of the Scripture on this issue. I’ve also shared the opinion, previously, that this subject is not an “essential,” not something to make an issue over. Yet, it seems to come up more frequently than I would expect for an issue that doesn’t need to be addressed. For instance, back in GC, a cell group in our church was doing a Beth Moore video study, and I wondered if it was Biblical that the men were sitting under the teaching of a woman. Then, the cell group we were involved in at CCC did a video study by a woman, and the same question came to mind. And now, here we are at Wheatland, trying to decide what our leadership structure will look like and whether women will be on the board. I know both churches in which I was previously involved “officially” believed women should not teach men, or in a more strict sense be “in authority” over men (and how do you let someone teach you without granting them the authority of speaking into your life?). But this official position was not applied very straightforwardly or consistently.

So, I have struggled with the issue periodically without ever totally resolving it for myself. After all, when I contribute comments that could be considered instructional in a mixed group, how am I not “teaching” the men in the group? I considered for a time that maybe I did need to actually be silent in any mixed group to avoid inadvertently teaching a man in the group or somehow influencing his doctrine or beliefs. However, this never felt right (not that we should rely totally on feelings, I know). Like Sumner, I felt like God’s Spirit was with me and using me during the times when I would make such comments in a mixed group. Even though I was willing to do whatever God wanted in this area, including being silent in mixed groups if that was His will, I wanted to make sure I understood correctly what His will really was. I wouldn’t want to neglect to say something that He might be prompting me to say because of my misunderstanding of His will for women’s roles in the Church. So, I wasn’t silent in mixed groups for long, even though I hadn’t totally resolved the issue for myself.

I’m not saying I have it all figured out now, but I would say I am reconsidering it, again, and I hope to become a little more informed and enlightened on the issue, again. We have to admit none of us knows for sure what certain passages are telling us to do in our modern context (what is Apostle Paul really saying when he says women are saved through childbearing in 1 Tim? and what is Apostle Paul really saying about women’s head coverings in Corinthians?), and when taken together with other seemingly contradictory passages (like mentions of early Church women who were apparently leaders). I think Sumner lays out the complexity of the issue and offers some helpful information on the context that is unspoken in the scriptures – like her description of the goddess cults of Ephesus and how they would have affected the Ephesian church and its women.

But look how ridicules the disorder of that looks…blah! I guess it was meant to be so I’ll just stop there

I also wanted to share that I went to a baptist church where women and their positions in Christ were encouraged and valued. There was a particular group of women with gifts of prophecy and exhortaton. They were the watchmen for our church anyhow the women were all in agreement that there was a huge sin in the church that needed to be addressed. They prayed for monthis and asked for prayer coverage for themselves from some of us ladies.

Once they were all in agreement one lady the spokeperson approached the overseer of the group and asked to meet with him and the pastor. They all met and the pastor took heed to the prophecy. There was an affair of the heart between the worship minister and one of the lead singers! They looked back to when they sensed God was speaking to them on this situation and the timing was just as they sensed.

Do you see how these women had a high postion in Christ and yet positioned themselves a little lower then the men in authority over the church? They prayed, they asked and they met. They had keen abilities to discern, take strong and unpopular stands, and yet they positioned themselves to be yielded. This is also why I think that having men as the authority over the church is best, it is freeing, there is protection from our warrior men the stronger one and there is nothing in that that says we are less valuable!

Yes pastors need to make more use of womens gifts in the church there is soooo much that we have to offer and there is no pressing need to have women to be the authority over the church. This does concern my spirit. In the begining God created Eve and from Eve came Adam.